Does anyone still believe this guy?

Equal time, graphicsguy ;)

http://www.politicalusa.com/link/Magazines/Conservative/

MORE required reading, if you want to be informed. Other than that, sorry, guys--don't have the energy to voice more.

[QUOTE=PaavoPerkele]ah yes, I see it now Pank. I was so angry, I was having an adrenalin meltdown. I think we all know what a "real" edit looks like though. :D
(yes, but some people aren't a forum nerd like you, paavo)
Oh yeah...[/QUOTE]

Don't be angry. Be happy ;)
You started one of the fastest growing threads again...

Politics and religion. Does it every time.
All I will say is have a nice heated discussion people but DO NOT make it personal.

That is about it.
Enjoy the rest of Pav's post.
I have work to do

I nearly missed the heated debate...I was gonna skip this thread, but I have a small little opinion. Speaking as an American living abroad. I hope all Americans know to take their politians with a bit of caution, because living all over the world has taught me one thing. No government is honest! Never has been and never will be in my opinion. Just my two cents...

Mara

Not even the difference between republicans and democrats, so take that!

As the great Lewis Black would say,
"What's the difference between a Republican and a Democrat?
Republicans blow, Democrats suck."

I have nothing against republicans or conservatism in general. I have something against the Bush administration and their lies.

On Iraq:
There are two scenarios...

1) We knew Hussein did not have the weapons and still invaded as per Bush's plans from the month of getting elected. (It's true, documents were uncovered detailing "post saddam Iraq" which were made within the month of Bush taking office. It wasn't 9/11. Bush had this planned from the start.)

2) Bush was telling the truth that his intelligence led him to believe that Saddam did have the weapons and was truly acting in the best manner possible...except that he didn't have WMD nor connections with Al Quaeda. In which case, the fact that we pre-emptively attack a country and killed thousands was based on faulty intelligence. How can you ever believe them again when they stated it was fact that he did have WMD, and that they had proof? If our intelligence is that bad we can't go starting wars over stuff we think to be true.

Don't get me wrong, Saddam had to be deposed, but it could have been done with a coup. Don't believe me? We did it with neighboring Iran in the 1970s when the CIA launced "Operation Ajax" to throw out Prime Minister Muhammed Mossaddegh and install a pro-western dynasty (the Palavi dynasty) Shah. We did it before in the middle east, why couldn't we avoid many losses of lives and do it again?

Also, the US aided Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s. We provided him with many of the weapons he used to supress the Kurds and the same weapons were used against us. We made Saddam what he was.

And don't ever write off people who can't vote. I am more in tune with world affairs and modern history than most adults, including many on this forum.

The reason the Middle East is so Anti-Western is our own fault. We aided so many brutal regimes in Iran. When our regime placed in Iran was overthrown, we aided Iraq to help crush the rebels, but we failed. Many of our puppets in the middle east employed brutal secret police to crushed all dissent. Do some research on the Savaak and what they did. We trained them. When those governments were overthrown the revolutionaries rightly saw the U.S. as the cause of all their troubles so now they hate the US with a passion. We helped the secret police murder many of their relatives and friends a generation ago, now they are paying us back for our policies.

hah@"invisible countries". you'll have to forgive me as I do as you do and generalize by saying:"how typically narrow minded".

[QUOTE=Telemakhos]
Don't get me wrong, Saddam had to be deposed, but it could have been done with a coup. Don't believe me? We did it with neighboring Iran in the 1970s when the CIA launced "Operation Ajax" to throw out Prime Minister Muhammed Mossaddegh and install a pro-western dynasty (the Palavi dynasty) Shah. We did it before in the middle east, why couldn't we avoid many losses of lives and do it again?
[/QUOTE]

I had to comment on this because of the simple fact that this is hard to accomplish. Do you not think that they have been trying this for the past 10 years ;). Problem is that a man like Saddam isn't stupid he has tons of look a likes that go out looking as him. Hell half the tapes we see and what not are actually not him. As for this debate I am going to have to agree with Telemakhos when he says that he had to be taken out just not in the way that it happened.... but really is there any other way? Theres no one to stick up to a person like him.... and I for one if I was living in Iraq would have done the same thing knowing that if I did put up a fight that my family and friends would be killed (and myself as well). One other thing that I found funny was someone said that USA is the most well of econmic country in the world, however I must question whether this is do to a strong and stable economy or international investors. Just for a little clarification I am from Canada thus I hear American reports and Canadian reports which means that I am semi bias but who isn't now a days? I think that if Saddam hadn't been caught that Georgy boy wouldn't be getitng back in next election however seeing as he has been caught George Bush is guarrantee reelection.

In reply to a question above:

I'm voting for G.W. The only Democrat I could handle in THE position would be Kerry. Every other President will raise taxes so that I can have the pleasure of paying for my lazy-ass neighbor's health care bill. Na-ah, G.W. is the only only President who even has a chance of lowering the income tax rate. How can we do it? Cut programs that give money to people who are too lazy to work. Damnit I hate political discussions....I'm going to go have a beer.

EDIT:

1) We knew Hussein did not have the weapons and still invaded as per Bush's plans from the month of getting elected. (It's true, documents were uncovered detailing "post saddam Iraq" which were made within the month of Bush taking office. It wasn't 9/11. Bush had this planned from the start.)

There was talk of ousting Sadaam when Clinton was still in office. G.W. didn't invent the idea.

Since it's Team PS vs Nos, i don't have the time to quote every one, but i will try and address the majority of major points made.

Paavo -

I apologize if you were offended, i have better sense that to believe than Finland is full of a bunch of ice-agers who talk to bears and live in igloos. I was under the impression, though, that this was a political discussion, and Finland is politically invisible. Surely you can agree with me on that.

What's the difference where I'm from? We have electricity here too, we have TV, internet, radio and all that new jazz.

Yes, but this is not a TV, internet, or radio discussion - we are talking politics, and you said it best by saying that American politics affect the world - the same cannot be said concerning Finland. It's not a mockery of your nation, it's the truth.

I am very much into keeping up with politics, and yes - i do indeed know that Bush has faultered in afew ways, but i also know that he has done great things for this country. If you caught any of his State of the Union speeches over these past years he has been in office, you would hear the acts and bills by name. Our homeland is safer than it has ever been, educational funding is up 49%, medicare, HUGE tax cuts, this year our economy is predicted to be better than it has been in the last 20 years, etc, etc. That is why i am voting for Bush, and that is why he deserves the presidency.

Telemakhos -

If you are as "in tune" with politics as you say you are, i know that you have read all 17 resolutions passed by the UN Security Council concerning Iraq, correct? Here's a quote from resolution 1441:

Recognizing the threat Iraq's noncompliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,

We acted on 17 resolutions. We enforced those resolutions, and we had 60 countires by our side.

The reason the Middle East is so Anti-Western is our own fault. We aided so many brutal regimes in Iran.

We still are supporting Israel, which is the main reason. The thing is, yes it was our fault, but that wasn't necessarily a bad thing. Naturally, nations change enemies and friends quite often, that is why coalitions are, by definition, temporary alliances. I won't try and defend every screw-up that the US has done, because thats impossible - we have done wrong, we have acted out of corruption, but i honestly and wholeheartedly agree that the war in Iraq was not one of those cases.

Bush was telling the truth that his intelligence led him to believe that Saddam did have the weapons and was truly acting in the best manner possible

Yes. He acted on the intelligence his administration had gathered, but primarily his actions were based on the intelligence of the Clinton administration and the UN Security Council. I agree that there were other ways that the government could have been overthrown, but the way you suggested would just leave Iraqi's dead just the same as Americans are dead today. I am sure that Bush himself didn't actually come up with the strategy himself, he only approved it. He has strategic advisors and such, and based on the intelligence that had, what we did was obviously the best choice - unless you want to tell me that you are a better strategist than the Presidents top five strategic advisors?

Demowipper made a great case for why a coup would fail, so there is no need for me to continue - you get the jist of what i am saying.

Nos.

[QUOTE=Nostalgia]
Our homeland is safer than it has ever been, educational funding is up 49%, medicare, HUGE tax cuts, our economy is predicted to be better than it has been in the last 20 years,etc, etc.
[/QUOTE]

Hmmmm safer than ever??? From what? Your country has the highest kills due to guns in the world.... on top of that what are you safe from??? Someone running a plane into the white house? I doubt it there are still so many flaws that could be exploited easily (one example being the fact that sure the airport security is beefed up inside USA but take a look at flights coming into the USA there is crap all there). I (being in Canada) feel no more safer then I did 7 years ago and if anything I feel less safe now that my government has the ability to tap my phone lines at any point, can raid my house, and if they really wanted to they could team up with the USA making up crap that I am a terrorist and deport me to seria where I get beaten and tortured for 6 months (proof of this look up whats his face it's mayor ahar or something he is currently taking the USA government to court for deporting him to Seria where he was tortured and beaten for some time). Now tell me how can you feel safe??? I am not worried about some crazy ass arab running a plane into me... I never was in the first place... I am more worried about the fact that you can litterally buy a damn gun from the corner stores!!!! (this I do realize is a sterotype that I Have never had a encounter with in the states but belive to be true)