Religious debate - No flaming here...

Science is based on observations--it is an attempt to recognize patterns and put them together in a matrix that gives order and meaning to what would otherwise be chaos. Formulas and theories are simply repeatable experiments that seem to be supported. Science is not an entity that has or gives life... it is a collection of observations.

Christianity started as the personal experiences and observations of the first followers of Christ. If there was nothing in my personal experiences which further supported the revelations and miracles that the disciples of Christ observed, I would have a hard time believing, I must admit. But Christ is alive and real. I have personally (as Fig attested to) witnessed the workings and miracles of God in the lives of those around me. If you can't share those same experiences, then you must--yes, must step out in faith. That first step is an answer to a call. A call that is placed in everyone's heart--yup, I'm back to the void in the soul theory. I doubt my typed words will be the ones that reach that place in your heart, but I hope for you--and everyone, that some day you will hear that call. To answer it brings a peace you'll never know any other way.

Science never created anything. It is an attempt to explain the wonder and mystery of the universe. Christianity is living history. It's the belief that the little miracles that started when Christ was here are the same ones we see today, in the faith and lives of those around us, as well as in the miracles of science, medicine, art, nature, and so on... I've seen prayers answered, wonders explained, and lives changed--all because of belief in Christ.

Or maybe you prefer the lonely unexplained mystery of molecules randomly crashing together. The more I studied science, the more holes and unanswered questions I found.

Science isn't merely molecular theory; people choose the path of science because it doesn't leave holes and unanswered questions for them. Being a believer yourself malibu, maybe you can bring to light (or attempt to) certain unanswered questions and holes posed by religion: if humans cease to believe in God, will it still exist; rather, will it still have this omnipotent power that manipulates our present and future? Will miracles occur or will they be substituted by ground scientific evidence? As long as there are holes in theories, there will always be religion to attempt to fill those holes. The non-believes will strive for the truth while the believers choose to use an alternative. Sorry if I sound too anti-religion but I can perfectly imagine a world without religion; a world where people follow a single set of rules which would be the law of the universe, or science if you prefer.

I'll address them in reverse, some people would say that God is more omniscient and omnipotent. I believe there is discussion that leads both ways, however I find it more fathomable, based on empirical evidence :D , that God does not hold us all on puppet strings, rather gives mankind free-will, which in and of itself opens up the present and the future. I believe he knows before it happens the choices we will make, but not that he manipulates us all to his whim.

people choose the path of science because it doesn't leave holes and unanswered questions for them

Now to the more important point--your observations about the completeness of scientific theory tell me you have not spent much time delving into the deeper veins of science. Not to be presumptuous, but I believe if you had, you would realize that science has more holes in it than religion. It creates more questions than it answers. And personally, I find that one of the wonderful things about science--the fact that we still have leagues of information to yet even touch!!! I love science. But it brings no resolution... it fills no voids... it's like a big puzzle we can never put completely together. It will NEVER answer the question, "Why are we here?"

but does religion answer why we are here? Religion definatly answers how we are here, but does it say why god spent a week creating everything? In my opinion science can be looked at much like a religion. Obviously they are not the same but they have parallels. In religion you have faith in a higher power that nobody knows exists for sure, its just excepted. In science the basis of all matter is made up of atoms, molecules and sub atomic particles that nobody is really sure exist. Im not a religious person heck i cant really even spell. I went to sunday school every sunday untill i was 13. As to malibu's comments i dont think that religion really answers the question of "Why are we here?" either. Both are a puzzle missing a few pieces. Science is infinite amout of questions that will never all be answered. Religion has been passed down by basically word of mouth and books. There is always bias in books including the bible. We will NEVER know what really happened in biblical times just as we will never fully understand exactly how our world works in the realm of science

"science has more holes in it than religion. It creates more questions than it answers..............it fills no voids"

now here's where im confused. How can you compare the two???Science has more holes in it right....and thats because we havent got good scientific evidence to form a theory. But when there is a hole in religion...you patch that sucker up with whatever you want to believe...no matter how far fetched an idea it may be. You dont even give religion a chance to have a hole in it......you just defualt back to an idea like it must be gods work. Ya see what im saying with this? Religion may fill more voids...but you can choose what to fill those voids with......so saying science has more holes is unfair.

Hello everyone,

It’s amazing to read all that is being said and to see all of the viewpoints. So I’ve decided to stop by and drop my 2 cents.

Some of the illustrations have been pretty entertaining, as I’ve taken note on those trying to prove their point. There is religion and there is relationship, I for one am not religious, but I do seek to have a relationship with God. But no one will ever reach a relationship without revelation and revelation requires a desire to come closer to God in every way. Religion got started, because you had people lacking a vision of God, they were lacking understanding and love grew cold.

It would be very logical to look at science as a means to explain things because they’re tangible. However, we know that there are things that exist that you cannot see, feel or touch. If you were laying on my couch crying over a sharp pain in your abdomen, I’d call you a liar. Why? Because I can’t see the pain. It’s like knowledge, you know that you know but you can’t literally see the “know” can you? You can’t literally see “understanding” but you understand. So then, what does knowledge look like? I can ask any of you here to fire up your PS and crank out a logo, and you know how it works and you can visualize, but to show me your knowledge is absolutely impossible. You can only show me the fruit or the outcome of what you know; the finished product. And the way you crank it out is by understanding. Knowledge is simply the ability to process information, but understanding now takes you to another level, it’s called revelation. So there are things revealed to you that others can’t see. How are things revealed? Through a relationship. You can apply that to anything. You wouldn’t know who to work PS if you never got acquainted, you’d never have fallen in love with designing if you hadn’t pursued through those all nighters that left you out cold the next day. But you pushed and you got a revelation. So now from your designs, I can see the fruit of your struggles. But you can’t take knowledge outta your brain and say, “See!” You can’t take the essence of understanding and say, “Tah-dah, here it is?” Because these are components that are alive and active inside of us, but arent’ tangible. Now I’m not talking about thoughts, I’m talking about the very essence of knowledge and understanding.

So why and how did we end up in this entire thing called life? For many reasons…but above all, so that God could reveal to us His love and compassion. Someone said it was ridiculous that God couldn’t forgive Eve but could forgive a murderer. But if you keep reading they were forgiven. But why the tree? Why the casting out of the garden? For the fact that God had always wanted to love and care for what He himself has created.

Yet at times we look to this present physical world for our answers. But let me ask, where did we get the earth from to study it? And if no one was there in the beginning to see it evolve, is it true? Because according to science you can’t have something come from nothing, and if you do you must be there to observe it occur lest it be false. So not only do we see one contradiction, we see two, in two areas that claim to have some correlation. Which is why the book of Hebrews 11:13 tells us that the things which are seen are not made by things which do appear. For the things which are seen are temporal (meaning they change) but the things that are unseen are eternal (meaning they never change). So then if we look to science, the data today is obsolete tomorrow. But when was the last time you saw some dude get up and say, “Well it’s time to change the bible around here, here and, here and update it.” Never.

Granted there are diverse interpretations, but the truth is we can’t allow concepts to hinder truth. When do you walk down the street and hear an explosion and say, “Oh it’s just a noise, didn’t come from anything, it’s just a sound that happens every afternoon.” Man, I’d look at you and say, “What are you on crack?” So then if I only believe what I choose to believe, I still don’t really believe, I believe myself and I can be way off of truth without any revelation. Because to have revelation one must develop it with an object outside of oneself to allow love to reciprocate and complete it’s process.

The truth is God loves everyone of us. If we believe He exists, he does, if we believe He doesn’t, He still does. Some say, “Well I’ve got to see it to believe it” but I challenge you to believe it that you might see it. Do you need faith? Yes, but faith is not the lack of logic or reasoning.

Faith actually is the vehicle that goes beyond when logic and reasoning have exhausted their capacity to perceive. Now I’ve heard some say, “I try to just do good.” Now that’s awesome, but what is good and why do we compare it to bad or evil as its opposite equivalent. Jesus said something very powerful in John 3:21 “… he that doeth truth cometh to the light…” It’s not about doing what’s good, but rather to do the truth. Heck, Al Capone did good. He built orphanages and hospitals, and nailed a bunch of folks, but he did good. What really should be happening is to do the truth.

Religion, nor faith is a way to soothe the mind for what cannot be explained. But it is actually an established way to get people back to what was in the beginning of time; God Himself. Because it’s more than just explaining to me why were here, it’s about understanding my destiny and purpose in life. Who cares why I’m here, I already am and there’s nothing I can do about it, I just need to know where I’m going.

I know this is lengthy but thanks for your patience, and above all things, remember, if there is no God, then there is none to you, and if there is, there is one to those who believe there is. But if God chooses to exist, our lack of or belief in, doesn’t add or take away from His awesomeness and greatness to whom be all the praise, honor and dominion…world without end.

.: Z E R I M A R 3 :.

man........its like 5:30 in the morning (eastern time) .....im about to go to sleep and you reply with an award winning word count lol. But thats good. keep the input coming. More opinions the better the debate. You raised some good points though. Now if i could only remember half of them at this hour i would give some feedback!! My brain hurts..im going to sleep.

Originally posted by PowerfulSquid
See, even with how a child is brought up bothers me. Not only do the parents force religion on their son/daughter, but they do it at such a young age that they have no choice. Let the kid grow up, atleast 14/15, and let them choose whether they wish to believe in something, or not, and then suppport them.

Originally posted by Zyconium

hahaha . . . my neighbours are jehovas.. they aren't that bad
maybe you shouldn't talk about **** you don't know about ?

First of, Zyc, are you really sure that your neighbours are typical for Jehovas ? Are they the template for Jehovas. I do not say that all Jehovas are "evil". But I do say that the Jehovas "government", as far as me goes, are to say the least a bunch of funny plp. They have a database concisting of ~36000 pedofiles, wich they not report to the authorities, they support the "eldermen" in their husch-up of such crimes....In the name of god.

Second, I agree wiz you about the war idea. There's not a single war that wasn't about religion in one way or another, that should tell us something....

Third, I'm all with you Squid, that's been my idea for sometime...

I haven't read all of the posts in the thread, so I won't comment mostly.

Along with trying to get my life back in order over the past few months, I have also been searching for answers. Mainly the answer to why...Why was I put here, ect.

I have really just begun my journey to find myself, but it's become clearer to me that it's not about what deity you worship or which denomination you find yourself leaning too...It's more of focusing on the energies that surround us and using a connection to the engery the universe provides for us...rather than stealing someone elses energy through endless conflict.

I've come to learn this philosophy from picking up a book I had bought about 6 years ago. I read it then, but didnt pick up on the message. I have decided that at that time, I wasnt ready to receive the message, so I didn't 'get it'. So a few weeks ago I picked it back up cause I was bored and needed something to occupy my mind...and I finally understand.

I can't really go into the concept in depth but it deals with the fact that humans are here to build their energy and learn to connect to the universal source instead of stealing it from others. The whole idea is to learn to look at the world in a new way. Not as a place to dominate to further the species, but to positivly influcence the spiritual and mental evolution of mankind.

If you get bored, just check it out. It's called The Celestine Prophecy...it will probably be in your bookstores fiction section, but the ideas have just as much of an impact. All you have to do is keep and open mind and think on a different level.

Originally posted by Patteman




First of, Zyc, are you really sure that your neighbours are typical for Jehovas ? Are they the template for Jehovas. I do not say that all Jehovas are "evil". But I do say that the Jehovas "government", as far as me goes, are to say the least a bunch of funny plp. They have a database concisting of ~36000 pedofiles, wich they not report to the authorities, they support the "eldermen" in their husch-up of such crimes....In the name of god.

lol I don't know much but I can tell you for a fact that is not true.. heh someone has been ****ing with your head.