Religious debate - No flaming here...

Fig

I don't think I could've said it any better myself...

i dont have a religion. i just live my life, have a good time, and try to make the best of things.

this is just for the sake of argument now:

A historical book as the bible does have it's accountability and is factual. The writings of the prophet Isaiah declared more insight into the messianicship of Christ than any other prophet ever. Then thousands of years later Christ shows up…perhaps a huge guess ay?

So I guess the bible was written over a span of several thousand years eh? - or perhaps was it written after those things allegedly happened? If so - then who's to say it relates stuff accurately?
I am not using "fake" science to proove God does not exist - whomever said that should read my posts and pay more attention.
I have become convinced that there is no way I can persuade the religious zealots of my point - which is I am an agnostic - nothing more - nothing less - I am not trying to say God doesn't exist - I am trying to explain why I am having trouble believing!

But let me tell this and be over with:
Even though I am not a believer that does not mean that my life has no meaning - I find fulfillment in my own set of rules and I strogly believe that no amount of holly writ will make you a better man if you are an asshole to begin with! - Torquemada is but one example! - I have read the Bible (not as a study - and I admit to skipping large paragraphs - it gets really boring when X begets Y and Y begets z and so on and so forth) - I've also read pieces of the Coran and from what I've read there should be a copyright issue somewhere - a lawsuit waiting to happen... I did not read those to become an adept - but because I wished to partake in what was described to me as great books.... Agnostics are not renowned for their proselyte making theories so I am not trying to convince or force anyone to follow my beliefs - I am asking - I am wondering - And I will tell you this - on judgement day - if there's any truth to it - I will stand with my head tall and answer for every single one of my actions and beliefs - with arguments. This is more than some priests I know can brag about being able to do! Rushing with your head on just because "it's in good faith" was never good business and my guess is it never will be!

mihai, i have a question for you? what's your point of posting in this thread? i don't mean that in a negative or condescending way, but i'm trying to understand what you want to accomplish. i've read and understand most of your points just fine and believe you're entitled to believe whatever you want, but that doesn't mean i'm going to instantly change my mind and agree with you on everything. on my "pseudo science" comment that refers not just to you (tho i think it prob does on the rock argument) but to anyone posting scientific arguments that are derived more from their own arguments against christianity than the factual evidence presented in the bible. the bible is very vauge with regards to creation and a lot of other scientific events which leaves plenty of room for science and the bible to agree, more than most would probably assume.

in answer to your bible question, whether you believe its contents are true or not it IS a histprical document, collected from various writings into the bible as we know it (more or less) by a council constantine assembled in around 320AD if memory serves.

I strogly believe that no amount of holly writ will make you a better man if you are an asshole to begin with!

see, i actually disagree with you there to a point, i know lots of former a**holes that have changed of course, it was due more to the God contained in the book than the book itself...

chris

p.s. ty zerimar, i've enjoyed reading your comments as well

oh boy - how many times do I have to repeat myself? - I don't want you to change your mind about anything - I don't want anybody to believe in what I say. What I said is an explanation of why I (me, myself) am unable to believeI am not offering proof of any kind - I am stating why I am unable to fully believe in the existence of God - What I tried to accomplish; why I posted - well it started as any other post - I saw what people wrote and I wrote my own story - the way I was raised - and the fact that I am an agnostic - then people jumped at me and I stood up for what I believe - or rather for the reasons why I am unable to believe. That is all - I defended my case as best I knew how - I never tried to convince anyone (but me) of anything....If you will read the whole deal perhaps you will see it - I never said what other people should think as opposed to some here who did - I only said what I believe or don't believe - I didn't urge others to read the bible or not to read it - I never spoke like a mechanic until asked to - I never said christians or muslims or catholics should hang because they preach stuff that opposes my own thinking, and I most certainly didn't make final statements like "you will see the truth in thee end" - "you will become convinced of and so on" while all the time I was the "target" of people telling what I should think and what will be reveled to me....

mihai

I was just wondering when you were going to get around to answering my questions which I had posted earlier. I went ahead and posted them here again in the form of a quote.

A historical book as the bible does have it's accountability and is factual. The writings of the prophet Isaiah declared more insight into the messianicship of Christ than any other prophet ever. Then thousands of years later Christ shows up…perhaps a huge guess ay?

Not to mention that the minor prophet Hosea spoke of the salvation outside of Jewish heritage, only for Christ to show up thousands of years later to bring Grace to the Gentiles, another huge guess perhaps?

Well where did these guys all meet when one died thousands of years earlier to make sure the guy who showed up thousands of years later would do exactly what was written thousands of years prior. And of course that's prophecy; history in advance and accurate.

So let me ask you this. What's your take on the Apostle Paul who was born of the tribe of Benjamin, circumcised the 8th day after his birth according the covenant of Abraham, concerning the law a Pharisee, in regard to his equals he was above them and then persecuted the early church in the book of Acts after having studied at the feet of Gamaliel? Tell me, what you think of his conversion from killing those who preached Christ to becoming the one who wrote over half of the New Testament and lifted up churches to which the Pauline epistles are written?

Answer if you will how from the lineage of Adam to Abraham, on to King David of Israel came the man Jesus Christ of this same lineage thousands of years later to preserve the kingly throne, and call Israel to repentance, only to have been rejected and turn to a people who were not His own which now fulifilled the writings of Hosea and Jeremiah who had prophesied of this thousands of years earlier?

You made a statement earlier in another post that the bible teaches us we can beat the crap out of an army with a donkey's jaw, to which I answered saying that's not what it teaches but rather that with God, the impossible is possible.

Could it be that you do not believe because you haven't throroughly read the bible and understood it? Because you seem to know what the bible teaches so I'm assuming you've studied it. Otherwise your statements concerning the bible will be full of fallacies.

Just asking. I'll look forward to your answer on the above questions...especially on your views of Apostle Paul, namely his conversion.

Cheers,

Zerimar3

No more - I do not wish to continue this - I have said most of what I think - please do not think it is because I do not have answers - I admit that my knowledge of the Bible is scantier than yours - as a matter of fact you will see in one of my earlier posts that I said I didn't study the bible - I've read it - and I also admitted to skipping large paragraphs - However - it would be extremely easy to find answers for you -
A quick google search brought me to this - site - the first on the search results page which contains a list of entire sites dedicated to Paul - While my memory, knowledge or abilities may be limited - I have at my command one of the most powerful tools ever invented by man - the internet - information seconds away whenever I want it....
It would be easy to find just the right answer - but no more.... It would only lead to more and more intricate and convoluted ways of my trying to find ways to excuse or rationalize away the "miracles" and your bringing more and more arguments taken from this or that thesis or sage's words...
It is not leading to good things - I may not be able to believe in God but I do not take it lightly = I respect all faiths equally and I am (even though it may be hard to believe) looking for my place - perhaps one day something will happen that will convince me - one way or the other - be it an epiphany or an incident that will end my quest in a more brutal manner. Please try to understand that I am not against religion - as a matter of fact one of the people I revere most is a priest - well - he's an archbishop as a matter of fact = he's American and his church given name is Chrisostomos. I met him at a press conference while he was visiting Romania - my country. I thought then that he was the most open-minded priest I had ever seen and I talked to him for a couple of truly blessed hours 0 he did not try to convince me and I respect him even more for it. Instead he told me something that made be believe I am doing something right - he said "Even though you may not know it you are pleasing Jesus because you do not flock with the sheep but keep it on its toes as the guardian dog. We all serve purposes higher than we believe and there is a place for all and a duty for all"
Although I am not religious and the last time I actually entered a church was because I was interested in the architecture I can say I am doing a small part to help... - Each year a NGO I am affiliated to puts out a rather large booklet - 400 pages with reviews of religious artifacts that are restored and brought back to the public - I handle some of the DTP involved and the translation into English (I am more careful with that than with the stuff I write here - you may notice grammar horrors from time to time in my posts). Anyway I do that for free - the money that comes out of it goes to church hospitals and orphanages... I am not telling you this to brag but to try to make you understand that I am not a stupid college washout with disillusions of grandeur and/or a cheap nihilist . I respect religion enough to work for free for a church support organization - but I hate being pushed into no matter what - especially into something I am trying to figure out on my own. I will not pursue this further – let us stop arguing because none of us will win and I have no intention of winning. I wish most of all to become convinced – one way or the other. Human arguments will not persuade me – I am hoping in higher enlightenment.

mihai

Point well stated my friend. It has truly been a pleasure sharing and seeing your point of view.

I too feel like mihai, these arguments will continue and go on.
I may retire to simply observe and may not respond as much, but it's been good.

Take care and have a great day! Now on to Photoshop...Hooray!

Cheers,

Zerimar3

ya cant give up on this baby now?? Six pages and she's just getting started.

Obviously im joking cause I retired a while back. I dont know jack about religion and im no scientist so you can understand my reason lol. Welcome to the Grandstands. Can I interest you in cool beverage or some popcorn?