Discussion: How do you feel about abortion?

How does a woman prove she was raped or drugged though?

In some cases I suppose a woman can show some massive bruises or what not if she was sober and put up a fight. That’s not always the case. I’m sure alcohol won’t become illegal anytime soon and as long as drugs or those sleeping drugs are out there for guys to slip into women’s drinks there will be unwanted pregnancies.

Why is this important? Because there are people who want to say abortion is just plain wrong “period”. If you take away a woman’s right to get an abortion, there goes her right to stop a pregnancy early if she actually was raped or what not.

I don’t think people are looking at the big picture…

If you outlaw something it makes it very difficult for people with special circumstances to get help. You all know how slow our legal system is. Do you think it’s a great idea to have a woman who wants an abortion to have to go to court and prove she was impregnated against her will? I think then you’ll have more cases of baby body parts being removed.

This isn’t about whether it’s right or wrong but whether its right to take away a woman’s right to make that decision.

It sucks that people with strong personal beliefs against abortion have to fight so hard against it because they’re really hurting people in need.

The whole argument about the majority of women getting an abortion plainly because they made a mistake is just dumb. How many young girls are going to feel comfortable enough to admit they were drunk, drugged, or pressured into having unsafe sex?

Everyone woman will have a different situation. This issue isn’t so black and white and you make it out to be.

you don't understand - you keep talking about laws. I'm talking about moral choices. I'm not saying we should take away any legal right. I was asking wether it's the right choice. And you're wrong - it's not about taking away a woman's right to make a decision. It's about asking her if she's making the right decision.

The whole argument about the majority of women getting an abortion plainly because they made a mistake is just dumb. How many young girls are going to feel comfortable enough to admit they were drunk...

So - you're offering promiscuity as an excuse for abortion? That's rich! "Comfortable" ?? we're talking about life! - and you're telling me that a life (granted - potential life) should be taken to make someone feel better because she got drunk??
- as for the drugged, pressured -I think that goes under "raped or forced."

I agree that every woman will have a different story - but we're still speaking about somebody's life. Are you prepared to say you have the capacity to judge wether a life should be taken?
Let's put those things on a scale - see which weighs heavier:

- on one side we have an unwanted pregnancy carried to term - that means 9 months of discomfort, back pains and a generally miserable state of affairs, swollen mammary glands and a readjustment of wardrobe

- on the other hand we have an unwanted pregnancy aborted - that means a life is taken.

which would you say weighs heavier? Nevermind what the law says - what does your decency tell you?

Flack: You are taking the examples of unwanted pregnancies due to violence as an excuse to legalize the slaughter of millions.

In 1973, the Supreme Court of the United States legalized abortion. Since that time, more than thirty million unborn children have had their lives snuffed out. This is sixteen times the total number of Americans lost in all of our nation’s wars combined. Every day, more than 5,000 unborn lives are aborted in their mother’s wombs.

These numbers are from over 10 years ago. What you're failing to realize is that for a woman who has been raped and impregnated, you are possibly causing even greater long term emotional damage--brought about by the day that the woman comes to term with the abortion. Even though conceived in violence, the woman has killed an unborn child, and the later realization of this fact can bring about long term emotional repurcussions.

The doctors know this. But because we have chosen to close our eyes to the truth as we worship the god of self, we justify the killing of this life under the mantle of the law of the Supreme Court. Yes, killing is the right word. The doctor is not removing the life, he or she is killing it. We euphemistically call it "terminating a pregnancy."

They do this in a variety of ways. In the early stages, they may perform a D&C or Dilatation and Curettage abortion. A tiny spoon-like instrument, the curette, is inserted into the womb through the dilated cervix and the wall of the uterus is scraped, cutting the baby’s body to pieces.

Suction abortion is a more common method in early stage pregnancies. This is like the D&C, only a suction tube tears the placenta and baby to pieces as they are sucked into a jar.

Another form of abortion which is used in later stages is the Salt Poisoning, or Hyper-natremic abortion. Usually around the thirteenth week of pregnancy, a long needle is inserted through the mother’s abdomen and a strong salt solution is injected directly into the amniotic fluid which surrounds the child. The baby is poisoned and burned by the salt, and the mother goes into labor about a day later and expels a dead baby.

While there are Hysterotomy and Prostaglandin abortions, as well as discussion of RU486, the abortion pill, the latest form of abortion to come to light is the D&X, or Dilation and Extraction abortion. This form of abortion was recently featured in Light, the publication of the Christian Life Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention. This method was taught by Martin Haskell at the National Abortion Federation "Risk Management Seminar" September 13, 1992. Haskell operates abortion clinics in Cincinnati and Dayton, Ohio, and claims to have performed more than 700 D&X abortions. In this abortion, the baby is removed feet first, with the exception of the head. Then the abortionist stabs scissors into the base of the skull, and the head is "evacuated" — the brains are sucked out. Haskell reports that he "routinely" does these abortions on women 20 to 24 weeks pregnant.

Why would people close their eyes to this? Have they believed the pro-abortion propaganda? Unfortunately, many have. Some do because they are deceived, others do because they choose to. But for those who are willing to divorce the emotional rhetoric from the real issue of abortion, there still remains this question — Are we killing an innocent human life? You must answer that question. You cannot avoid it and honestly claim that you are seeking the truth.

:: excerpt taken from horizonsnet.org

[QUOTE=mihai]you don't understand - you keep talking about laws. I'm talking about moral choices. I'm not saying we should take away any legal right. I was asking wether it's the right choice. And you're wrong - it's not about taking away a woman's right to make a decision. It's about asking her if she's making the right decision.



So - you're offering promiscuity as an excuse for abortion? That's rich! "Comfortable" ?? we're talking about life! - and you're telling me that a life (granted - potential life) should be taken to make someone feel better because she got drunk??
- as for the drugged, pressured -I think that goes under "raped or forced."

I agree that every woman will have a different story - but we're still speaking about somebody's life. Are you prepared to say you have the capacity to judge wether a life should be taken?
Let's put those things on a scale - see which weighs heavier:

- on one side we have an unwanted pregnancy carried to term - that means 9 months of discomfort, back pains and a generally miserable state of affairs, swollen mammary glands and a readjustment of wardrobe

- on the other hand we have an unwanted pregnancy aborted - that means a life is taken.

which would you say weighs heavier? Nevermind what the law says - what does your decency tell you?[/QUOTE]

Re read the very first post in this thread “Should the government be able to tell a woman what she can do to her body?”

No I think I’m right on the ball. If we think its fair for people to make moral judgments for others we’ll have people just like you and I who MAY be making laws that are affecting people with different situations.

I’m not offering promiscuity as an excuse, I thought by my whole post that would be clear. My point is that YES there are lots of cases where people are getting an abortion because it’s convenient but that’s not in fact the point of the abortion argument. The point is that there are those who need to get an abortion and might not be able to.

Here’s a great example. Let’s talk about legalizing marijuana? Well a whole lot more people use it that than those who actually need it but its pretty f’ed up that it’s so damn illegal that people have had to fight to get it for medical reasons. It’s nice to know that people CAN get it if they’re dying of cancer or what not right?

The situation is this. People are fighting the government over whether the government should be allowed to tell them if it’s ok or not ok to have an abortion. My personal feels are irrelevant. Just because it freaks me out about even the thought of a woman abortion doesn’t out weight my feelings toward those who WILL need to get an abortion.

So I here’s my question again. “How does a woman prove she was raped or drugged though?”

According to ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, (and I don't know if any of you have ever read about) every species repeats the evolutionary development of that species. Therefore (in my view) at that stage of development, a fetus honestly cannot be seen as human quite yet.

um, ok. i'd be interested to hear what else that fetus has the potential to be :rolleyes:

If we think its fair for people to make moral judgments for others we’ll have people just like you and I who MAY be making laws that are affecting people with different situations.

but how and where do you draw the line for that? we already draw moral lines all the time, you can't steal, you can't kill, etc. the debate would seem to be more "are you killing something or not". we've already decided that you can't kill someone else, right? how is this necessarily different?

also, i'm curious, anyone here seen photos of aborted babies? i'm not looking to post any, just curious. its turned my stomach to see photos of mutilated body parts of fetuses that "weren't human".

chris

[QUOTE=Fig]

but how and where do you draw the line for that? we already draw moral lines all the time, you can't steal, you can't kill, etc. the debate would seem to be more "are you killing something or not". we've already decided that you can't kill someone else, right? how is this necessarily different?

also, i'm curious, anyone here seen photos of aborted babies? i'm not looking to post any, just curious. its turned my stomach to see photos of mutilated body parts of fetuses that "weren't human".

chris[/QUOTE]

No I think that’s extremely true.

However I’m not convinced (I know I’m not the only one) that we have the answer to whether an abortion is killing a human being. So making laws restricting a woman’s right to choose isn’t the right way to go in my book.

Yah I’ve actually seen pictures on the side of trucks before. It’s pretty damn disturbing. I think a lot of people are talking more about the extremely early stages of the pregnancy though.

Re read the very first post in this thread ?Should the government be able to tell a woman what she can do to her body??

No - I beg to differ - the thread subject is "How do you feel about abortion?" the first post was merely a personal opinion. At least this is how I saw it...if you were responding to the first post only - I apologize.

.....we?ll have people just like you and I who MAY be making laws that are affecting people with different situations.....

You still don't understand what I want to say - In my opinion (stress "my") it's not about laws - you keep speaking about apples and I'm talking about pears. I could care less what the law says in this matter - it's not my concern - the laws differ from country to coutry, from state to state...we're on separate continents by the way... I am however concerned about the morality of the issue. You keep hiding behing legal issues. I asked you how do you feel about it? Which do you think outweighs the other - not what the law should or shouldn't be.

So I here?s my question again. ?How does a woman prove she was raped or drugged though??

Again - it is not a good question. Why should anyone have to proove anyting. I assume canada has the same principle? They take your word for it until you're proven a liar? But even if it's not the custom in Canada - I would still believe anyone who said to me they were raped until I learned otherwise. It still isn't the issue - it's not about restricting rights but about asking yourself (if you're a woman in this kind of situation) wether it's right. Then you can choose to make use of your legal rights...or not.

[QUOTE=mihai]No - I beg to differ - the thread subject is "How do you feel about abortion?" the first post was merely a personal opinion. At least this is how I saw it...if you were responding to the first post only - I apologize.



You still don't understand what I want to say - In my opinion (stress "my") it's not about laws - you keep speaking about apples and I'm talking about pears. I could care less what the law says in this matter - it's not my concern - the laws differ from country to coutry, from state to state...we're on separate continents by the way... I am however concerned about the morality of the issue. You keep hiding behing legal issues. I asked you how do you feel about it? Which do you think outweighs the other - not what the law should or shouldn't be.



Again - it is not a good question. Why should anyone have to proove anyting. I assume canada has the same principle? They take your word for it until you're proven a liar? But even if it's not the custom in Canada - I would still believe anyone who said to me they were raped until I learned otherwise. It still isn't the issue - it's not about restricting rights but about asking yourself (if you're a woman in this kind of situation) wether it's right. Then you can choose to make use of your legal rights...or not.[/QUOTE]

In my own opinion I think it’s better for people to stop an early pregnancy if they’re not willing to take care of their child. If the child is really developed than I think the mother should go through with the pregnancy.

I brought up the question about proving whether you should prove to your doctor that you’ve been raped or what not, because people seem to be against abortion unless its for a certain reason. My argument is that, that’s a wrong kind of standard because we just don’t know what the persons deal is. If we went by that kind of standard people would have to prove why they need the abortion.
I think that’s relevant no matter what country you are in. A law against it will leave people in the dark.

there see - wasn't that nice saying what you think? :P
forget the stupid laws ... - laws are everchanging.... morality should stay the same...

[QUOTE=mihai]there see - wasn't that nice saying what you think? :P
forget the stupid laws ... - laws are everchanging.... morality should stay the same...[/QUOTE]

*And I walk off into the sunset.* :p