Remembver the Navbar....... well its all finished now

aw gee thanks ;)

But no. I'm not a mod. Though I always thought we should have a "free porno distribution" section.. I'd totally mod that.

are you a mod here supah

man that would be scary! lol

There's no reason you can't sell it, even if you don't know what you're doing. It's an experience, and it's also something you learn as you go. It should be up to the customer to see if they're getting good work for a reasonable price. Etc, etc.

What in the hell kinda world do you live in? Basically your saying...even though im not a doctor...i can perform brain sugery because its a learning experience....and it'll be up to the patient if they want me to cut their head open or not. The world dont work that way lol. First, selling wont benifit anyone. It wont benifit lazyroll due to lack of clients/know how/experience. It will become just a gaint pain in the ass instead of a successful business. It wont benifit the clients and it def. wont benefit the design community as a whole. Second chances the client can take advantage or "screw" him are a little bit better. The time you will spend practicing by yourself will greatly out weight anything you learned/gained (including money) from a client!!!!

***Offensive rant below***


Also there really needs to be a line drawn in the sand here!! Ever since this filesharing ****.....anyone little kid who can download photoshop can be a Dezign0r and seLz dezignz! And that pisses me off cause it reflects badly on ppl like me.....who know what the **** they're doing....who have had years of experience and who have studied design to no end. Also if photoshop didnt exist......no 15yr old would be thinking about work (unless its unpaid or under the table). So what the hell gives someone the right just cause they jacked a copy of PS?? There should be a law that you cant exchange business online without being 18!!!!! just like porn and everything else.


***end offensive rant*** Note the above was purely a rant...not a personal attack of anyone.


and damn it supah.......u got me all wound up. My blood pressure is probably through the roof :D

Also if photoshop didnt exist......no 15yr old would be thinking about work (unless its unpaid or under the table).

Ok, from a personal stand point, [being a 'young adult'] I don't agree with this, when (I) you're doing it for actual income [aka: paying for your own food etc etc]. But, I'm VERY sick of people my age that claim they can design but do a really ****ty job and the clients end up unhappy in the end. I think with experience, no age should matter. I think with lazyroll here, his problem is lack of experience none-the-less. So without experience you'er nothing, but you shouldn't be judged by age, or any other discretion.

How can you compare selling designs to brain surgery? Brain surgery is something where someone else's life is in your hands, so obviously you have to know what you're doing. Webdesigning is handling someone's website in your hands. If you're equating a webdesign to life... well, damn.

plus you said about how many things could go wrong by him being inexperienced... well, that's hwo you learn. When something goes wrong you know not to do it in the future.

Another thing is that if you wanna be a professional doctor - or a professional math teacher or a professional lawyer or what have you - You have to realize that these are occupations that have a lot of cut and dry things that you need to know. either you know it or you dont. either you're right or you're wrong. If you perform brain surgery, then either the person makes it out fine or he doesnt. Either you do a good job or not.

But webdesign is art and art is subject to different tastes. you complain about kids who can become l33t d3z1gnz0rz after downloading photoshop and making something that someone with no skills can make... but look at modern artists! They make **** that a 4 year old can do with a can of paint and some fingers, but hey, they're selling it, and people are buying it! to a lot of us, it looks like junk art, but hey, there are people out there who like it and are willing to buy it.

And you know how you said you're pissed that people who just started learning photoshop yesterday are getting money, and people who have been studying it for years dont get ****? that's a hypocritical statement, because you like punk music (I think.) It's the same with punk music - you get a group of kids who have been playing for a week and they can play 3 powerchords and voila, they're all of a sudden famous musicians getting tons of money and respect from all around the world. Meanwhile, there are fantastic musicians who have studied their instrument for all their lives and have gone to school and all sorts of things and are geniuses at music, and still they're doing gigs in shoddy NY bars and making minimal wage.

My opinion? sure i'm angry at people who haven't practiced at it doing better than people who have done it for a long time, but it's an argument of "why do I have to be good at art in order to make art?" and "Why do I have to be good at music in order to make music?" You could say that you should be good because it's your job, but the "why should i... etc" argument is a pretty strong one too.

When I say it should be up to the client, well, think about it. It's up to the client whether or not he likes the design and the public image that he is having made for him. It's up to him to like/dislike the design, and it's up to him to buy/refuse the design.


Another thing is that you are angry at any little kid who can just download photoshop and be a dezign0r. Well, guess what? That's how I started. I was 12 or 13 when my friend got me a jacked copy of photoshop. And i felt like an uber designer back then. Now i'm almost 16, i have a few years of study under my belt and I think i'm pretty good at it. I think i'm good enough to do designs for other people for pay. But no matter how good i get - even if i become the best designer in the world - it all started as me being a 12 year old getting a pirated version of photoshop.

You gotta start somewhere.

How can you compare selling designs to brain surgery? Brain surgery is something where someone else's life is in your hands, so obviously you have to know what you're doing. Webdesigning is handling someone's website in your hands. If you're equating a webdesign to life... well, damn.

Its the same idea though...that you need to KNOW something before you can do it!! With webdesign...your holding someones site in your hands. That site is more than artwork though. That site affects the clients/companies image, it affects the client money wise...etc. No they are not going to DIE from it......but a crappy website can have many bad effects on a client. It's not a matter of good or bad though......its just your either "qualified" for the job or your not.

plus you said about how many things could go wrong by him being inexperienced... well, that's hwo you learn. When something goes wrong you know not to do it in the future.

True....but the type of things that will go wrong because of his inexperience will get in the way of actually learning the basics of design. Also you can make mistakes without selling those mistakes! (which would be a mistake in itself lol)

You have to realize that these are occupations that have a lot of cut and dry things that you need to know. either you know it or you dont.

How about basic graphic design rules...rules of the web, compression etc. There is alot of cut and dry stuff underneath the "art".

but look at modern artists! They make **** that a 4 year old can do with a can of paint and some fingers, but hey, they're selling it, and people are buying it! to a lot of us, it looks like junk art, but hey, there are people out there who like it and are willing to buy it.

Yes.....but think about how many of them have studied art for years (an education even) and have done year and years of work. You dont become an artist overnight.

Another thing is that you are angry at any little kid who can just download photoshop and be a dezign0r. Well, guess what? That's how I started. I was 12 or 13

Yes...but were you selling your stuff at 12 or 13? Were you scouring the web promoting your madz skillz0rs? I dont have a problem if they download photoshop...if they started that way...or use it to learn. But the whole design scene has become a joke because of them selling and being all bad-ass about it when they're anything but! Thats why im pissed.



*** Summary***
(for those who dont want to read all of this lol)

You have to know a little something before you can go out and do it. Thats how the world works. As for lazyroll.....im with the ppl who believe he shouldnt sell his stuff. I believe he should just concentrate on the basics first.

rodder.... this may be against what you are saying......

but if you take a couple of my other pieces of work :

www.lazyrollers.com
www24.brinkster/lazyroll/index.htm

i think that youll see i have learnt alot by just coming to this forum.....

lazyrollers was my first attempt at a photoshop based website..... and then from that i learnt some sort of design "ethic" which i have been able to use to make a site that really makes me wanna read it (the one on brinkster)

and yes my copy of photoshop was jacked but from someone who has used it alot! its not like i just thought it would be cool one day and went and stole it from napster or woteva

anyways

Gimme a couple of weeks and ill come back with a site youll like based on what y'all said

Marc

i think that youll see i have learnt alot by just coming to this forum.....

....well just stick around long enough.....you'll learn a whole lot more!! Soon you may even become a nerd just like most of us :-P

lol...... i got quite a nice looking design at the moment on my pc..... ive gotta make all the content look nicer but it will be nice when im done
will post it up about wednesday

the lazy rollers website sucks,i could own the **** out of that in 10 sceonds in notpad

about being young and selling your stuff, im 15 but im 1337, it dosent matter how old you are, as long as your good enough to sell it and know what your doing

the reason i get pissed if because nubs who think there 1337 tell people theyll do a site for 50$ when a normal person who actualy is good and and knows what they are doing would charge 1000$ for it. THis makes people de-value design work and they think design is easy and isnt worth ****

next, the nub steals the job
and the client ends up with a ****ty unimpressive site which makes people think designers suck

but if what you are designing....... people are wqilling to pay good money for then surely it doesnt matter about anyone elses costs or effort?

anyways, good money to you trying to buy a copy of madden 2004 isnt good money to a 30 year old with 4 kids

Hobo, you are 15? I thought you had a wife that was in pain? That's wierd... People must get married REALLY young where you come from, not to mention get insurance and jobs for huge corporations...

http://www.teamphotoshop.com/forum/vbforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17444&highlight=wife