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Microsoft moving jobs overseas? |
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| Jun 18th 2004 | #153729 Report |
 Posts: 970 |
That’s what Microsofts offering and that’s what everyone should be getting. To answer the "majority" of your questions.... No it’s not a good idea because people aren’t getting Microsoft’s salaries… Working 40 hours a week and never taking any vacation time is still getting people laid off. People in other countries who are desperate for a job totally put aside labor laws and work twice as much for about a quarter of the pay. Sure there standard of living is less than ours but it’ll never be as good because they’re being exploited. Human beings aren’t slaves… What's the deal with assuming everyone laid off wants to sit on there ass and collect lots of money? Look at how much we work compared to the rest of the world. Look at the modern world as of today. According to a ABC News- Hours worked per year: (Give or take some) Keep in mind even if these figures aren't right on the nose we're still in the same ballpark as our fellow industrial nations. U.S 1,966 Japan 1,889 UK 1,731 France 1,656 Germany 1,560 Sweden 1,552 Norway 1,399 Hey look at how much vacation time us LAZY Americans get on an average. COUNTRY DAYS BY LAW: Sweden 25 Austria 25 Denmark 25 Germany 24 Italy 20 Norway 21 Spain 25 France 25 Switzerland 20 Ireland 20 Australia 20 Finland 24 Netherlands 20 Portugal 22 United Kingdom 20 Belgium 20 Greece 20 Japan 10 China 15 U.S. 0 (What we actually take) AVERAGE: Sweden 25-35 Austria 30 Denmark 30 Germany 30 Italy 30 Norway 30 Spain 30 France 25-30 Switzerland 25-30 Ireland 28** Australia 25 Finland 25 Netherlands 25 Portugal 25** United Kingdom 25 Belgium 24** Greece 23 Japan 17.5 China 15 U.S. 10.2 Because those Indians deserve to be paid the $24 an hour that we get if they're qualified. What’s the deal with this communism stuff? America is were you should be allowed to follow your dreams and all that... You’re saying, if I can’t get a job that I’m qualified to do, I should be a carpenter or a garbage man. Why don’t you burn a bar code on a babies forehead and tell it what to be when it grows up while you’re at it? I do think that hard working people should be able to have work. Where we disagree is where we’re taking people with no jobs and paying them “less” than what they’re worth. That's not right. Just because they're taking those jobs doesn't mean they think its right either. There's nothing they can do now is there unless someone actually steps up and says something and actually gets corporations to pay the right amount of money for peoples services. Microsofts on the right track. But moving jobs oversea's isn't the right thing to do yet. This countries filled with worker bee's who are not getting any work. We're taking other countries worker bee's and paying them a work horses salary. This whole thing about me not reading your posts is ridiculous. I’m reading in between the lines. It isn’t as black and white as you want it to be. Perhaps you shouldn’t ask so many questions if you’re going to be so easily lost and confused? Narrow down what you want to discuss a little? You posted a link and then asked a bunch of broad questions. |
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| Jun 20th 2004 | #153925 Report |
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Posts: 3734 |
Why should everyone get paid what Microsoft is getting when Microsoft is hiring skilled labor. Remember, not everyone is hiring skilled labor. Why should a McDonalds employee get paid as much as I do? That's ridiculous and Socialist. Hey, I have an idea Flackbait, you'll like this: lets just f-ing throw capitalism right out the window, raise taxes to 60%, close every business in the U.S., and force everyone to work for the government? There is a reason Sweden is on the top of those stats you posted below, and it's not because the are a "nice country". I'm going to buy you a subscription to Nation magazine, and you and Noam Chomsky can sit down and have lunch. No Flackbait, working 40 hours and not taking vacation is not getting people laid off, your reasoning is befuddling me. Nobody ever got laid off for doing their job. The largest sector that is/was laying people off is/was manufacturing, and that industry has been doing that for 30 years. They have a good 2-year streak, then lay off the newest 100 employees until production picks back up again. It's a cycle, and if you can find a manufacturing plant that doesn't follow that cycle, then that is where you need to be working. Flackbait, your complete maladroitness of knowledge on this subject is mind-blowing. I mean seriously, I am honestly dumbfounded by the crap that is coming off your keyboard. Do you even think about what you are typing as you are typing it? How can a worker, and not a company put aside labor laws? I don't know of any country that has laws in place that says a person can only work a specified amount of hours. And then it is up the person that works how many hours they want to work, why should someone only be limited to 40 hours per week? If I want to work 50 hours per week, you are saying that I should be punished because you only think people should work 40-hour weeks? Seriously, I want to talk to you in person to see if I am understanding you right, because surely you can't mean what you are saying..... Again, I don't have any idea where you are coming from. Usually I can even undestand the most reckless comments, but yours are simply stunning. You talked earlier about "cost of living", yet now you disacknowledge that it is an issue here? Now unless I'm misunderstanding you, and you are saying that everyone should be paid the same across the board, no matter the circumstance, then I'm going to have a strong desire to slap you across the face. Because if you are saying that a McDonalds employee should be paid the same as me, then that's more than Socialist, that's freaking insane. I don't know how many times I have to ask this, but are you typing just to type, because you aren't making any sense again. How does an unemployed worker have a gnat's ass to do with how many hours people are working? Since you don't understand, the unemployed are just that - unemployed. They aren't working any hours, so how again does that have anything to do with how many hours the people that are working are working? =========== Regarding your stats, notice that Sweden has one of the lowest figures for hours worked per year, yet by law they are required to give their employees 25 paid vacation days per year? The government should never dive into that territory, but then again, Sweden is a Socialist country, and thinks they need to have their hand in every single aspect of every single citizens lives. This comment ought to make everyone laugh: How does a bar code have anything to do with what job you have? FlackBait, you are a moron, and are proving it in every statement that you make here. Of course I think that if you can't get a job that you think you are qualified to do, that you should be a garbageman. If you think you are qualified, and you can't get a job, then you aren't qualified. If you were really qualified, you'd have the job. There are obviouly people out there that are better qualified than you are. Take the current IT job world for example. There are far more people out there that want to work than there are jobs available. Should the companies be forced to hire 2 guys when they only need one? Or should the government pay for that persons expenses because they aren't qualified enough to get the job they want, and think they above being a garbageman. If I lost my job, I'd go get a job as a construction worker or a garbageman until I found a better job, and I wouldn't complain about it (well, I might complain about the stink of a garbageman). Let me remind you that although you hate it, you do live in America, and we do run on Capitalism. The things that you are stating go against everything that Capitalism stands for. Also note that John Kerry's plan for the unemployed has them going to work for the government building roads. If you are above that, then John Kerry isn't going to help you out either. Maybe if John Kerry was going to force Boeing to hire you, then you'd have yourself a candidate right? You really seem to be forgetting that this is a Democratic Republic, and not a Dictatorship. What is the right amount Flackbait, should the government decide that? And if so, then why shouldn't babies get barcodes on their foreheads. In one statement you say you want more government interference, but in preceding statements you make a comment like: So you want more government interference, but you also don't. Why don't you make up your mind. And it's not as gray as you want it to be either Flackbait. But can you blame me for actually making solid, coherent statements. If that's being black and white, then call me guilty. =========== I had a recent personal experience with hiring overseas labor. I posted, late last summer, a thread in the Paid Jobs section about needed an ASP developer do do some custom database work. I posted the ad on a couple of programmingn forums. I received about 30 or 40 bids. The bid I chose was a guy from Turkey. I didn't choose him because he was the lowest bid, I chose him because his qualifications were perfect, and he was one of the lower bids. Should I have been forced to hire an out-of-work American that wanted four times as much money? ============== You sure are voicing your opinion against overseas labor Flackbait, but you have yet to offer a solution. Most people who argue a point respectively have an opinion on how to fix the situation, instead of compaining that it isn't fair. |
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| Jun 20th 2004 | #153932 Report |
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Posts: 942 |
Jeez, this thread is like dropping a bomb. It's hilarious to read all of this America-paranoia, though - we're the EVIL EMPIRE (see sig). I see nothing wrong with outsourcing. The government shouldn't meddle with the private sector, except for matters of pollution and taxes, both of which are simply necessary evils. Nos. |
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| Jun 20th 2004 | #153942 Report |
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Posts: 1028 |
Mattboy wins the award for Best Response Post in the Misc Section. That was awesome.
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| Jun 23rd 2004 | #154129 Report |
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Posts: 970 |
1.) I wasn’t comparing a McDonalds employee salary to yours or to some rocket scientists. I was more like comparing a McDonalds employee salary here to what we’re paying a McDonalds employee in another country for instance. I’m talking about the same job here over in another country… 2.) You just proved my point, people who are doing there job and working 40 hours are getting laid off. I’ll use your example…manufacturing industries laying off the first 100 newest employee’s. Enough said… *Edit: What I meant was here you are saying there's no excuse to be laid off and here you are giving an example of people getting laid off for other than being lazy or what not. My point you proved was there are other reasons people are laid off other than not working hard enough or whatever. Whiiiiiiiich brings me back to what I was saying earlier which was people are out of jobs for other reasons. Blah blah blah... 3.) What do you call over time? Are companies giving over time to people working twice as much as we are? Stop… Alright I’ve stopped reading the rest of your post. It seems I have to read through some pretty insulting stuff to get to your argument and I refuse to debate with someone like you. The only thing you’ve provided is “You’re wrong, and this is why capitalism is so great.” I haven’t once heard anything from you that remotely shows that you’ve at least once looked through someone else’s shoes… Go ahead, have the last post if you feel its necessary to throw one more insult at me…I’m not going to debate with you anymore about this. |
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| Jun 23rd 2004 | #154137 Report |
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Posts: 3734 |
I will, but not now. I have a meeting with my roof contractor in 15 minutes, then I'm going to a movie....but after that you are as squashed as a legless c-ockroach. (dang swear filter)
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| Jun 23rd 2004 | #154143 Report |
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Posts: 970 |
lol ;)
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| Jun 24th 2004 | #154168 Report |
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Posts: 3734 |
1) Don't go see "The Day After Tomorrow". The guys from the office go out to the movies on Wednesdays ($2 tickets + free popcorn). Tonight we saw "The Day After Tomorrow". There is more cheese in that movie than in a pizzeria. I mean seriously, haven't we advanced in animation beyond "Roger Rabbit"? Those wolves are as big as wildebeests, and look about as real as Michael Jackson's nose. ======================= OK, cleared up. But again, it comes back down to 'cost-of-living'. Starting salary at McDonalds here in Spencer, Iowa is $6.00/hour. Starting wage at McDonalds in San Franciso is anywhere from $9.25 to $10.00 per hour. If you were to pay a starting salary of $10.00 here, businesses across the state would close, since nobody would work for under $10.00/hour ever again. But the cost of living out here is dramatically lower than on the coasts. Hell, our unemployment in my county right now is at (reported yesterday - see link) 2.3%. That's amazing. You want a job, move here. You simply cannot pay everyone in every industry across the world the exact same. It would result in economic breakdown. Do you pay them Iowa wages, or California wages? ----- If you say 'California wages', then how about the business owners who will suffer in Iowa because they have to pay higher wages? They will have to lower the quality of their product to recoup the losses. If you forced companies to lower their prices to compensate, the quality of the good will decrease so dramatically that you would never be able to buy anything that would last more than 2 months because it was made so shoddily. You'd have to have 3 cars just so you would have one that ran at all times. By raising wages, all you would effectively accomplish would be to raise prices, which would get you exactly to where you started. If you say: 'Iowa wages' then how do you force the cost of living down in California to compensate? Do you force people to sell their homes at a loss? Do you force the auto industry to lower the price of automobiles? If you forced companies to lower their prices to compensate, the quality of the good will decrease so dramatically that you would never be able to buy anything that would last more than 2 months because it was made so shoddily. You'd have to have 3 cars just so you would have one that ran at all times. By lowering wages, you would force companies to lower their prices, which would cut out their bottom line. Businesses would close due to losses, and people would lose their jobs. Oh hell, you are back to where you started. ----- There is no winning proposition, that is why capitalism works. The less government interference you push, the better it is for everyone. ======================== No, what you said was that, and I quote: People are not getting laid off BECAUSE they are working 40 hour weeks and not taking vacation. You know that when you get a manufacturing job, you have a strong chance of getting laid off, it is a gamble. That is how manufacturing works. The only way to keep your job in manufacturing is to just wait the cycle out until you have been "on staff" for 5 years. You work for a year, get laid off for 3 months, then they go back to work. You work for 2 years, get laid off for 5 months, then go back to work. It's a cycle, just like everything. The people who are getting laid off aren't losing their jobs (unless they decide not to go back to work for that company). My father has worked the same manufacturing job for about 25 years. He went through the exact same thing when he started for the company in the late 70's. ================= Now I'm going to say "You're wrong" because I've provided examples and explanations in all of my replies, not "why capitalism is so great", but "why capitalism works". FlackBait, if capitalism didn't work, why did America go from a vast emptyness to the most powerful nation on Earth in as little as 125 years? We didn't do it because of Socialist practices, that is one thing I am certain of. ================= Well that I cannot be certain of. I'm not going to bother to research it since you aren't going to read this anyways...I'm just typing all this out for the rest of the forum visitors to read what you don't want to reply to. ================= I worked at McDonalds for 4 years, my father works in manufacturing. My single non-educated mother went from making less than $12,000 per year to making over $100,000 per year by going to school. She was single (of course had monetary support from my father) and she went back to school. She remained in her full-time job to pay the bills, and took night classes. It took a helluva long time, but she got it done. The people who say that those that are born in the gutter can't climb out don't know the real world. I don't have to put myself in other people's shoes, because I have worn those shoes. * And I did it without insults this time * I still want to hear you solutions to the problems you face. Show me your solutions, and I will tell you if I think they are reasonable. |
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| Jun 24th 2004 | #154182 Report |
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Posts: 970 |
What I propose: If U.S companies are going to move jobs overseas and keep their headquarters and a huge chunk of the profits here in the U.S, we need to treat employees as if they were employees of the U.S No no, not exact pay. (Yes I know there’s difference in the worth of the old dollar bill everywhere you look.) I’m talking about using the “same” equal pay definitions we use here in the U.S. What that means is we compare different jobs to provide a basis for a grading and pay structure. The aim is to evaluate the job, not the jobholder. So people in China for example doing the same that people are doing here in the states, won’t be paid a low income salary when we’re getting paid say a middle class salary. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree with you about how it wouldn’t work to make everyone’s wages the same. I realize that earning $8 dollars here would be equivalent to say maybe $20 someplace else. The problem that I have with shipping jobs overseas is the “unfair” pay however. As an example (I’m going to use Gap), without even looking this up you know that any legidament company here in the U.S pays at least minimum wage. If you or I were to make clothes for Gap we know we’d at least get paid a minimum wage. If we want more we should shoot for something a little higher right? I mean it’s known that if you work at McDonalds you’re going to get a certain kind of salary. Well in China for every $1831 a U.S family of “four” spends, only about $55 went to apparel production workers. There working conditions are horrible to say the least. I know know, this doesn’t mean that every company is out to do this but it’s been extremely popular with not only Gap but also Nike for example. We’re talking about companies that own lots of other companies. That’s why I think it’s great that Microsoft will pay there employee’s in India fair but shipping jobs overseas in general isn’t a great idea…”yet.” ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ About the working 40 hours and no vacation time and people are still getting laid off…How I was trying to compare this to the rest of my argument was that jobs are going over sea’s and we’re losing jobs to people in other countries no matter how hard we work and that’s not fair. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I’m not trying to belittle anything that you and your family have gone through. What I'm trying to say is unless things change with our companies that are employing people over seas, there are people who can never hope to ever earn a decent living. If we want to employ thousands of people to make shoes that’s great. It benefits us and them. If we don’t want to give them a decent pay and decent working conditions then the only one who’s really benefiting is us and accentually we are exploiting them because we are making a whole crap load of money compared to what we’re paying them. My point is that “we can afford to pay” them what they deserve. I don't have a problem with Microsoft moving jobs and paying their employee's a fair salary or have a problem with your article. I have a problem with our ways of shipping jobs over seas in general. I just think we're hurting more people right now than we're helping. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yah I think I'm going to wait till Day After Tomarrow comes out on video or just not see it. I actually liked The Chronicles of Riddick although some circles may think it's cheesy too lol. I liked it though. *Edit: one of my previous post when I said that the indians should be getting paid the $24, I meant get paid there worth. I didn't want to figure in how much they'd get exactly lol. Sorry about that. I wanted to focus on equal types of payments for the same jobs. |
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| Jun 24th 2004 | #154197 Report |
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Posts: |
Mattboy: What are we gonna do when this country spirals into another depression, stock market crash, whatever the devastating implications are... because our economy is not driven by corporations making huge profits--the economy is driven by consuming. It is driven by how much we spend, and how much we spend is driven by employment and salaries. People may soon ask, 'How did America go from the most powerful nation on Earth to a vast emptyness in as little as 25 years?" If we lose billions of dollars in salary base to India and Russia, that is billions of dollars out of the Gross National Product. You could even speculate that corporate values could plummet for publicly traded companies if so much investment money is lost because unemployment rates among white collar workers (the ones' whose 401K's drive the stock market) reach well into the double digits. Sounds like a possibility for a new genre of catastrophe movie! Where's my agent when I get a great idea like this for a screen play!?! |
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