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Does anyone still believe this guy?

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Jul 23rd 2004#156330 Report
Member since: Mar 24th 2001
Posts: 3734
Mattboy - what's your beef with teachers, man?
I don't have anything against teachers as teachers, I do however have a serious beef with anyone who believes that they are entitled to, or deserve something just because of who they are.

What I was pointing out is that paying a teacher more is not going to better educate the students, is not going to help the overall level of education that the students are going to receive. There are obviously better ways of going about it, such as lowing the student-to-teacher ratio. Hire 2 extra teachers to thin out the classrooms a bit, or to give special help during study halls, encourage students to volunteer their time to tutor other students, pay for after-school study programs. Iowa is proof that higher teacher pay does not equal smarter students.

Why shouldn't teachers be able to drive new cars and live in new homes like say... a bartender or a mechanic?
I think they should be able to, but they should go teach at a private school, or a community college rather than elementary education. I think cops should be paid more than teachers, because cops risk their life every day. I'm beginning to sound more and more like a dick every post I make, and I'm trying to think of a compromise as I type, but I can't come up with one.

We live in America, and anyone should be able to achieve the American Dream, and I don't think teachers should be excluded, except for the fact that they made a career decision to teach, knowing that they would never make enough to retire early. Like I said, I hate to sound like a dick, and I don't mean to, I really don't, but I don't think that anyone is entitled to anything just because of who they are. This is a country where you are rewarded for hard work, honesty, and a having a backbone. This isn't a country where anyone who demands a handout gets one.

I say - pay teachers like you would a doctor, or a scientist - they all control the future.
But doctors and scientists work 12 months a year, work 80-hours weeks, and their pay is based on how hard they work. Again, I don't want to come off a dick (too late, I know) but I think your pay should be based on how hard you work and your job performance. How should a teacher be the only job on the planet where the result of your job performance means nothing. How can a math teacher who fails 10% of his class keep his job? Now that is ridiculous. I understand we need teachers, and we shouldn't just fire them for one bad incident, but again, why should a teacher be the only job where their job peformance means NOTHING!?

Yeah thats what everyone has to deal here in my area. Class room goes from 30-35 people and teachers are forced to not only make sure every student is learning what the gov says but they've got to teacher more subjects and more classes. With all the changes the teachers don't get anything. It's not fair.

Then how is higher teacher salaries going to fix that? I say hire more teachers. Better teacher pay isn't going to magically make that teacher split into 2 people, which is what you really need.

Before you start tossing numbers around as if they actually mean something, let's examine the average count of students per classroom.
How can you say that those number don't mean anything? They prove that better teacher pay doen't equal better student performance, which is the basis of this entire argument. And you are saying what I am saying, that teacher pay doen't mean anything. You said above that the average number of students is a better indicator, and I agree with that. I think we should hire more teachers, not pay the ones that we have more money.

I'll put it like this. In the state I live in (South Carolina) our education system is horrible. That is directly related to the fact that teachers would rather go to one of the neighboring states or one of the less impoverished districts and get paid more money.
This again is ridiculous. You are telling me that even though Iowa pays their teachers worse than 37 other states, that my teachers are staying because of the pay?? I do not think so. Prove to me where you got your stats about why teachers leave, and then we can argue this fact.

I'll put it like this (as you said):
An Iowa teacher can go to Minnesota and make more money
An Iowa teacher can go to Illinois and make more money
An Iowa teacher can go to Missouri and make more money (about $12,000 more)
An Iowa teacher can go to Wisonsin and make more money

Then how come Iowa teachers aren't going to other states for more money. If they are, then the teachers staying are obviously still plenty qualified.

Iowa has among the most qualified teachers in the nation. Eighty-two percent of Iowa public school teachers in core academic fields have full certification and a major in their field, ranking Iowa as one of the top states (5th out of 50) in teacher qualification, according to a report of the National Commission on Teaching and America's Future, 1997.
Please explain to me why, if Iowa is 5th nationally in teacher qualifications, but 38th in salary, why our teacher's aren't leaving for Illinois?

And judging a states education success/failure on SAT scores is a little silly, considering that those tests are still, to this day, culturally biased. How many whife folks you got up there in Iowa?
Another statement you are misinformed on, is the idea that race has anything to do with test scores.

Let's look at the facts: (taken from my above link)
Illinois schools are 67% African-American, yet they rank #4 in SAT scores
Louisiana schools are 72% African-American, yet they rank #13 in SAT scores
Michigan schools are 41% African-American, yet they rank #10 in SAT scores

I'd say that "bias" you speak of, doesn't really exist.

EDIT: 11% of Iowa students are of a minority.
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