Let me know what you think

Its like why they teach you all these long winded formulas in math and than next year they laugh and say 'just kidding" and give you something that takes only 2 minutes because of 10

Why do they do that? Because it makes you understand the concepts better. Html is easy, nothing to it, but unless you keep using it you're not gonna have everything click. If you can't even sit down and learn HTML how do you expect to learn something like javascript which actually invovles thinking!! ;)

I would rather someone BS around for a month in notepad than to have them use frontpage for a year. I've sure they would learn alot more on what can and can be done with HTML than they would learn in dreamweaver that lays it all out for your nicely.

Its not high and mighty arrogance its common sense.

there is nothing that you can't do in Dreamweaver 4

HTML wise, yes this is true. But that doesn't mean its good HTML either. It tends to get buggy when you have lots of embeded tables.

Better designers concentrate on design, and use the best tools available at any time!

Dear god have you ever worked with a designer who didn't understand exactly what would and couldn't be done in a webpages *shudders* It causes no end of fights among the two teams here at my work. I don't think they should sit down and have HTML fried into their brain, but atleast have a basic understanding of it!!

No Problem, sound off. I also have a friend of mine who uses nothing notepad and swears by that. He wont use anything else. He says he wants complete control over his work. I read this argument in all the magazines. Pure coders vs. Programs. I find it very interesting. I plan on splitting the difference and use Dream Weaver but also know HTML. Later once I get better I will go one to other things. I don't know how to write javascript put I know how to cut and paste it into my site. ;)

Rock on Noko...

Cutting and pasting is all you need to know how to do in javascript. There are so many online references out there, that all you have to do is find what you want to do, and cut and paste it. I never learned more than the basics of javascript, because I hate programming. I took 2 years of Visual Basic and 1 year of C, and HATED every minute of it. That's been 2 years ago, and now I couldn't even begin to tell you what code you would need to start off a program. But do I care?? Nope. I don't want to be a programmer. Those long hours and crunching deadlines?? Not for me buddy.

Than you could never make a really good living as a web developer, htmlers are a dime a dozen, people pay good money for web programers not HTMLers

I may have a different perspective of this than others, because I'm a one man show at my company. I have to do all the coding, as well as all of the graphics. If I was working at a larger firm, and was solely the graphics/layout/interface guy, then I would not focus on the code so much. I don't claim to know everything about web design, but I do know enough of the basics of most things related to it that I know what can be done, and what is needed to do it. I guess role would normally be called the Creative Director at a larger firm. But who cares, it's just a title. Anyway, for those of you that are just working as the graphics people, then I can understand why you wouldn't want to learn the code. But if you are a one man show like I am, then I think it's necessary to know it.

I am in no way a "code-junkie". I don't like coding either. When I started, I bought a book on HTML, read it, and then downloaded HotDog Pro which was the cool HTML editor at the time. I've never hand coded a page in my life, and probably couldn't if I wanted to without thinking about it for a good long while, but I DO know HTML, and I can go in to the code if I have to and muck about and tweak things. I wasn't saying HTML is a programming language, it is far from it. I was just saying that if someone can't understand the simple markup of HTML, then they are going to have a real hard time with a real language. So you might as well start with the easy stuff.

Let me show you an example of a site done by a designer that didn't know the first thing about HTML...

http://www.workforcestrategists.com

This company paid a designer $50,000 to do this web site, and it doesn't even function. It's a $50,000 mock-up. It's supposed to be completely database driven, but doesn't have one bit of it in there. None of the forms even work. All of the text on the page is in image format. There is not one line of plain text in the entire web site. There are MULTIPLE layers of images, because the person found the layer drawing tool in Dreamweaver, and started putting images on top of each other all over the place. The FRONT page is 300kb! None of the images are compressed. The slicing is awful. There are probably a hundred images on the first page (don't quote me on this, I didn't actually count). That number could have been halved if the person had known how to stretch and tile images. But they didn't because they didn't know how tables and HTML works. This is a web site done by someone who only focused on design. Sure, it's a beautiful web site, but it is completely unusable in this medium. Most users would time out before the front page was even loaded, which would make them think that the site didn't exist, and they would probably never return because of it.

That's just a personal experience of mine with a site created by someone who focuses solely on design. (by the way, I know all of that because the company came to us 6 months after they got that site asking for a redesign, but they had a lot of internal trouble in their company, so it never worked out for us to work with them. But I did evaluate the site for them.)

If you are working in a large firm, then you can probably get away with not knowing HTML, because the coders will catch your mistakes, or redo the whole thing anyway. But if you are the one responsible for everything, then you need to know this stuff!

And to Noko, good luck man, and keep with it. My dad was in a very similar situation when he started, and now he and I run the company together! Even after all these years I don't think he really knows HTML, but he knows the basics and can go into the source and tweak some stuff, and knows what I'm talking about when I mention something. (Of course, he still likes to do pages in Netscape Composer too..... Man, I'm glad I handle the technical stuff now... )

Deker does have a point, and I'm glad that someone from that side spoke up.

Don't get me wrong. I know my HTML, and I know it front to back. I just don't like to do it. I know javascript. But just the basics. Well probably a little more than the basics, but I couldn't write a standalone javascript applet or anything.

If one of the web programmers quits, I won't have a problem dong their part of the job until someone else is hired (as long as it doesn't require XML, CSS, PHP, Perl, etc.....) (fat-chance).

But I'm in the process of learning just because I can make more money. I'm not going to do it because I truly want to, I'm going to learn it because I'm driven by money. They say money can't buy everything, but the person that said that didn't have any.

.

Deker -

OK I admit - you provided a very good example to illustrate your point, and I guess that proves that you are partly right in what your saying. It never really occurred to me anyone would use Dreamweaver in such a way!

I guess I was assuming that the person knows the basics of what you can and you can't do on the web. - and the basics of HTML.

There are certain "rules" if you like to make compatible,stable websites - and I guess these everyone should know - like "don't use layers use tables" - but above all test the site in as many browsers as you can. etc

But provided that these rules are communicated - I still think its Ok to use a tool like Dreamweaver as your main editor - and to learn using this software. I think its OK to design, and learn to design using Photoshop - (Dreamweaver is far too clunky for design in my opinion) .

The most prolific example on the web of "stupid designers" that I can think of is the optimisation of graphics - so many professional designers use badly optimised gifs for example.

"learn HTML in depth, not just the basics" was what you said, and thats what got me a little riled. I just dont think thats necessary any more - sure you got to know how to sort problems out, but that comes with experience.

What you are objecting to I think is the starter web designer coming along and persuading people to part with their money after spending a few days learning Dreamweaver. Yeah your right it does make it easy for this kind of thing - but thats competition for you. The guy who designed your example site was Ok from a visual point of view

For your first go that is mean. But if you add your new found skills with abit of originiality then i think you got what it takes. You just need imagination.

Mark,

I guess it's kinda hard to have a debate over this without really knowing anything about each other and our definitions of certain things. I mean like where the line is drawn between knowing the basics, and knowing it in depth. I mean basically, I think people should know the tags, and the attributes for those. And the basic form of an HTML document. No layer/dhtml/javascript included. Basically just understand what you can do, and a little of how you can do it by hand. Then the rest is pretty self explanatory once Dreamweaver has laid down the code.

Yes, my main problem is definitely when people use Dreamweaver for a few days and starts asking for money. If you were to look back at my posts, you'd see that I only get all flustered about this when someone says they are going to start a web design company when they are like 13 years old, or have been using Photoshop for a week. (No offense to 13 year olds or newbies) Yes, I suppose it is competition for me... But not really. Sure they may get a few clients, but in six months, when the person has never had an order or an e-mail from their site, they are going to realize that they got burned. And soon (I hope and pray) people are going to realize that their wife's brother's cousin-in-law's aunt just isn't going to make them a quality web site over the weekend. Then they will come to professional design firms, and get it done right. I'd say that's what 40% of my clients are, is redesigning sites that weekend warriors have slapped together. Yes, the designer in my example is a very good designer, and the site would have made a great tri-fold brochure, but like I said, there is a lot more to web design than making pretty graphics.